According to WJZ-TV 13, the Maryland School for the Deaf is considering the admission of hearing students who are proficient in sign language. If this were to happen, MSD would essentially be rendered as a mainstreamed program.
I’m all for it just as long as MSD offers educations that are on par if not better than the other local hearing schools. What do you all think?
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Im offended by your comment, “Im all for it just as long as MSD offers educations that are on par if not better than other local hearing schools.”
Are you saying that MSD only has an obligation to provide quality education at the school if hearing students are allowed in?
What about deaf education, is it not on par or good enough already for hearing students?
As a deaf person and a deaf educator I find your comment an insult to deaf education. I guess our educational system can only be improved if we allow hearing students in because then well we have to “be on par or better” than other local hearing schools.
Well, are they on par?
That my friend is a matter of opinion. I am not objecting to the fact that many agree that deaf education is not on par with regular public school education.
My objection is with the attitude that the only reason we should allow hearing students to mainstream with deaf students is that we first “fix” the schools so that they are on par.
We should be working together to improve deaf education not because of a possible influx of hearing students into deaf schools ie Gallaudet but because deaf children deserve better.
how will allowing hearing students who attend deaf schools improve the educational system?
I doubt it will, are you EVEN reading the comments, you seem to be way off point?
However Mr. Rice stated that he did NOT have a problem allowing hearing students into MSD as long as the educational opportunities were improved or on par with that of hearing schools.
I objected to that comment as an insult to the deaf education system in general.
I do not believe allowing hearing students into a deaf school will per se improve said deaf school.
If your asking me how we can improve deaf education in general then restate your question and post it again!
However, Mr. Rice didn’t say “I guess our educational system can only be improved if we allow hearing students in because then well we have to ‘be on par or better’ than other local hearing schools.”
You said that. I think Mr. Rice wasn’t saying to that effect. He said as long as MSD is on par or better than hearing schools. He didn’t say put hearing kids in deaf schools and it will improve the education. He said improve the education first before allowing hearing kids.
Wow, you totally misunderstood me. I guess that happens. Im not offended.
When I said the above, I said it in frustration that by implying that in order to allow hearing students into deaf schools we must first improve them is an offense to deaf school.
We can argue that deaf education and deaf schools in general need to be improved. That I will agree with, but our reason for improving these schools must be because of the deaf students.
Mr. Rice’s comment made it sound as if the hearing students were more important and they should not be allowed into a deaf school until the deaf school improves. That is were I took offense.
We could go back and forth on this forever and its obvious you may not have understood me clearly, for that I apologize.
Well, before getting angry, perhaps ask Mr. Rice for further clarification if he meant it in that manner of speaking just as I took your comment “I do not believe allowing hearing students into a deaf school will per se improve said deaf school” to be saying one thing when you clearly explained what you meant just now.
I am glad we got that cleared up!
I actually did ask Mr. Rice for clarification in my very first post, the first and second paragraphs if you will are questions asking for clarification from him.
No. It is dangerous!!! Reverse mainstreaming. We dont need hearing people to start taking over things!
Fine by me. I am sure many of you know that Gallaudet University offers the Hearing Undergraduate Student (HUG) program.
Check out lyrics by Gilbert O’Sullivan, “Fine By Me.”
they have a cap — 5 percent! no more than 5 percent of hearing students.
This trend is inevitable.
It is bound to happen. Do you think Gallauet University will continue its stature as the world’s only liberal arts university for deaf and hard of hearing students for future generations to come? It could be or it will not be. The point is that a good number of us are already debating this. The same goes for National Technical Institute for the Deaf and other educational institutions.
Sounds excellent. It’s a start, that much’s certainly for sure. About time we quit treating hearing people as outsiders. But to be honest, unless the deaf educational system is overhauled and deaf standards raised considerably, this kind of change would be rendered pretty much moot.
Apologies. It was certainly not my intent to offend or confuse.
It’s no secret that the quality of deaf education at many schools for the deaf is substandard. If hearing schools offer higher quality educations, then hearing students should go to those schools.
However, with that said and as someone who has taught deaf college students, I can say that some of the best and brightest students I’ve worked with came from MSD.
Also, could it be that the move to consider admission of hearing students is being done to counter low enrollment.
Thanks for your clarification, I think as a community we should be focusing on deaf education anyways, with all the latest talk on deafhood and the issues at Gallaudet we are missing one fundemental core issue and thats the education of future deaf generations.
I dont personally have a problem allowing hearing students to attend deaf schools. I think its a great idea that will help foster understanding and acceptance between the two groups.
I just feel that instead of accepting the fact that deaf education is substandard and saying, “well hearing students are welcome to attend deaf schools but we need to improve them first!”
what we should be saying is, “deaf education is substandard in comparison to most public schools and we ned to improve this for the betterment of deaf students.”
not because of the fact that hearing students will be entering the deaf schools we need to be doing this FOR the deaf students.
Well said! I agree with you 100%.
Well said, Lolly. Discovery of effective deaf educational methods should absolutely be the #1 focus of our community.
I just want to add that lack of quality education and illiteracy happen in any schools. The quality of education in general in some schools, including hearing, be it all hearing students academia, all deaf students academia or those deaf students mainstreamed, are substandard to begin with.
Also, there are some schools in categories mentioned above that provide quality education
that is on par with standardized education.
While this is about MSD letting some hearing students enrolled, I am not comfortable about putting deaf under a microscope when this problem is global, not a deaf or hearing thing.
As for MSD’s plan, I think it is a win-win for both parties, deaf and hearing. Hearing students who enroll at MSD will have a full access to everything without relying on an interpreter nor feel like an outsider. This opportunity will allow deaf and hearing students to develop alliance, and work together to educate the public once they go out
in the real world.
I am for more deaf schools to implement this approach. I know that PS 47 School for the Deaf
in New York (former school of my late grandpa/great aunt) (I think it is now called ASL/English School something??) do allow hearing students enrolled.
A teacher told me one of the students in pre-K has no connection to the deaf community and his mother decided to enroll him there. As it turned out, this student picked up ASL so fluently that no one would have imagined him not being a CODA.
I think it’s interesting that this is happening at a deaf-run school (the superintendent is deaf). Is this an out-of-the-box way to keep the school funded?
Afterthought: MSD is one of the stronger deaf schools across the country. I always enjoy meeting MSD students and alums. There’s a great sense of community pride. With that said, it seems to me that MSD believes in education excellence and has put high priorities on improving the academic standards. I don’t see their thinking, “We still have to improve so we gotta enroll hearing students now.” It’s more like, “We’re already a model and we can even be a stronger one if we actually consider enrolling hearing students.” The reverse idea of mainstreamed education. Pretty radical, me thinks.
Am not sure if this means anything at all, but the enrollment numbers for MSD is declining in recent years after that boom in the mid-1990s.
My son did go to their infant program a couple of years back and the # of students was pretty good. But, when it was my daughter’s turn, the number of students dropped dramatically. Now, I’m told that one infant class had only one deaf student this year and that student had to join the older infant class.
I think this is primarily due to the exorbitant cost of living in Frederick, MD and its hard to move there nowadays without feeling economic pain.
In any case, I think it is a good idea… but should be limited to pre-K and elementary school levels. I know it may be superficial but what if one of the hearing graduates apply for college, and the admission committee notes that s/he’s not deaf but attended a school for the deaf? Would that affect their decision in deciding whether to admit or not? Just wondering…
On a tangent, I’m told that MSD now has a CI program. I find this somewhat amusing though…
My question is why are we worried about what the admissions committe will say in regards to a hearing child?
We should be worried about what they are going to say in regards to a deaf child graduating from the same program/school!
and then we should make sure that the program/school is indeed up to par so that any University or College will focus on whats important - the students strenght not that of the school or program they attended.
The cost of living in Frederick is exorbitant? Thought it was otherwise! Hmm.
Well, I shouldn’t have said exorbitant, but I do know some families have moved out due to the increasing costs of living. I mean, compare today’s cost of living with mid-1990s, and it’s a big difference.
Compared to Palm Springs, CA, Frederick sure does look cheap.
Christian, you’re right. I don’t really know the current situation at MSD. I guess the glory of the 90s boom still carries its tune with me to this day.
But isn’t MSD a good school by today’s standards? Enrollments have gone down-does that mean the quality of education has declined? From this standpoint, I’m not clear if MSD is a good or mediocre school.
And what I’d like to understand is why hearing students should be admitted if there’s ambivalence about MSD’s current academic standards.
Just WHAT “standards” can we use for comparsion purposes? Even if seniors at MSD and Blair High both took the SATS scores, the correpsonding statistical analysis (REGARDLESS of RESULTS) would be wayyyyy off due to MANY circumstances too numerous to even partially list here.
This is why I think that only those who like MSD (for whatever valid or non-valid reasons, I don’t care) are the same ones who think it’s a “good” school. It’s all very subjective.
oops- I mean SATS test, not scores :)
JT, we certainly know what justifies a “good” school. Simply based on student retention rate upon graduation, % of students going off to colleges, and high achievement rate. It’s true that a lot of what we think about MSD is subjective. But school rating is not entirely subjective.
I have a faint idea of what constitutes a good deaf school—based on students’ strong leadership skills, active community involvement, one of the top academic bowl teams, and % of hs graduates going to Gallaudet or NTID.
So yeah, the dilemma is, in the eyes of deaf community, that’s “good.” But if you’re putting that in the comparsion mix with hearing schools, it’s mebbe so-so at best?
This is why I wonder how admitting hearing students will impact the long-standing traditions and standards that are already in place at a deaf school. Can they participate in academic bowl competitions? Be part of JrNAD? It’s not just the academics that can be shared—it’s the “deaf” experience. How will it be defined with hearies sharing the same classroom, dorm, or field? Will they be scolded by teachers for using voice and not signing? What kind of rules will be in place for them?
Hmm…
I was disqualified from my deaf school’s annual public speaking contest for all juniors and seniors. The teachers and administrators said the contest was for students who took English and Speech classes at the deaf school. They were referring to the English class I took at a mainstream school. Hey, I took the Speech class and debated with them stating that it would improve my overall skills and benefit me in the long run. Most of my deaf classmates told me personally they thought I should participate and even they said they would not be surprise if I won the contest. Keep in mind, all credits which I earned from the mainstream school were transferred to my deaf school for the diploma. To this day, I disagree with their decision.
To the point: in my opinion, a hearing student attending a deaf school full time should be entitled to all privileges given to deaf students.
However, I have a question: what privileges should be given to a hearing student if he/she takes one or only a few courses at the deaf school (reversed mainstreaming)?
Editing test…now working…:)
One question:
Since the states pay/designate funding for the schools (special education), would they spend $ on educating non-special kids?
Very good question. Perhaps they’d use the same justification Gallaudet uses for admitting hearing undergraduates - whatever that might be.
Actually public schools get their money from local governments i.e. the cities in which they are located while they get their funding for special education students from the state which gets the money from the federal government.
So if a federally funded/state school was to open its doors to regular public school students then the school would then be eligible for funds on a per student basis from the local government again where the school is located.
Gallaudet on the other hand dosnt have this issue as its a private university that charges per student admissions directly to the students. So unlike deaf students who get VR and other support a hearing student who wish to attend Gallaudet is in the same boat as an international deaf student, they have to come up with their own money.
I’m not sure this is entirely true. Despite charging students tuition, a huge percentage of Gallaudet’s funding comes from the American taxpayer. I’m uncertain as to whether the hearing undergraduates pay tuition that is equal to the cost of a full Gallaudet education independent of Federal dollars.
Thats a good point. My understanding is that Gallaudet charges X dollars per semester and as a hearing student you have to pay the amount. The same applies for visiting students.
However you bring up a valid point. I am not certain we need to ask a HUG student.
Any HUGS out there????
HUG here. You are correct Loly, hearing students pay the same amount as anyone else would, and we’re still eligible for financial aid through the university.
That might be good for the Children of Deaf Parents (CODA) attending the Maryland School of the Deaf or other residential schools of the deaf.
CODAs often complain or get frustrated for not able to attend the same school as their deaf siblings or their parents’ alma mater school.
My deaf mother (recently deceased) and deaf cousins were the proud graduates of Maryland School of the Deaf (MSD). I know the MSD all by heart which I was frequently told of past MSD stories which some economically impoverished parents (hearing) attempted to send their children to the MSD. So they don’t have to feed and house the children at all. That was from the late 30s and early 40s.
For example, Rob Voreck is a perfect symbol for the hybrid of hearing, then become deaf later (I dunno know if that is totally true aboput Voreck losing his hearing later or pretend to be deaf). Rob Voreck is really a cool guy! I always enjoy having him around Gally or bump into each other.
That’s what I was told about Rob Voreck’s past attempts of enrolling at Gallaudet cuz of cheap tutitons as compared to other hearing universities. He had to resort to the pretense of being deaf. God bless Rob Voreck for coming to Gally in the first place because he could feel fully belonged.
I would recommend for any youngsters, who happen to be anti-deaf or have unforeseen prejudices toward deaf people in general. So the judge would sentence this hearing youngster to the two semesters at the residential school of the deaf! That apply to the future “Rush Limbaugh”. Aha!
Robert L. Mason (RLM)
Agree with you! Rob V is a great hybrid… half man, half tobacco. : ) I gotta tell him about this.
LOL! I actually came across this posting quite by accident only to see my name mentioned! (Gee, Glenn, thanks for letting me know about this…NOT! And, yes, I STILL smoke! :) )
I’d like to state for the record that I was born with moderate hearing loss. I was raised in hearing schools and used hearing aids throughout my K-12 years, although I’ll admit I ditched the hearing aids in high school because they weren’t “cool” back then.
California VR accepted me based on an audiogram. When I moved to Arizona, the state VR accepted me based on California’s acceptance of me as a VR student.
Of course, I went to Gallaudet. There, I was told that technically, I didn’t meet Gallaudet’s requirements in regards to having a baseline hearing loss. However, because of the fact that both California and Arizona had accepted me as a VR client, Gally was more than happy to accept me as a student as well.
So, I became somewhat of an urban legend. Even at a recent Children of Deaf Adults Conference held in Las Vegas, I was told by Bobby Loeffler, a current Hearing Undergraduate Student, that he had heard tales of a “hearing” student who roamed the grounds of Kendall Green in the 90s who “faked” his way into Gallaudet. Uh-huh, no question that myth was about me.
The amusing thing is that when *I* was a student at Gallaudet in the 90s, I was told of a legendary tale in which a hearing student “faked” his way into Gallaudet in the 80s!
And, just in case you’re wondering, Gallaudet was actually more expensive for me to attend than if I had attended an in-state college/unviersity.
Admittedly, I’m ambivalent about putting CODAs in programs for the deaf if the rationale is to make deaf parents participants in their children’s education.
I’m not a parent but am at the age where my friends have kids, and one made an eye-opening remark… that a charter school was subliminally recruiting CODAs based on fear of parental inferiority. “Send your kids here, that way you’ll be able to have full communication with your hearing kids’ teachers. You’re a parent, you should be involved in your kid’s life!” (Not an actual quotation, just conveying the spiel used by recruitment.)
A deaf school was the best option for me but it isn’t necessarily the best for hearing kids (and for all deaf kids, for that matter), and I wonder if some deaf parents have decided to enroll their hearing kids in these charter schools on the basis of being able to participate in their children’s education rather than the learning environment that would be the best fit for the children. Almost like hearing parents deciding to mainstream their deaf kids because that site visit was comfortable for them.
The admissions folks at MSD aren’t dummies, I’m sure they have their students’ interests at heart. This and much more have undoubtedly been considered.
I was mainstream in all my life. I didn’t associated with the hearing people except in sign languague club or after school activites. But in-class, before & after school it was with my deaf peers.
I never gone to a deaf school before. I have couple of deaf friends who went to MSD or MSSD. They were bright people with good paying jobs.
Adding hearing student to a deaf school is like having them take over our future. Im having a problems with school with mainstream programs do not do enough to support the student’s future and with deaf school may do very little to support some student’s future. What I dont understand is why do you want to add hearing student to the school, when the world hasn’t done enough to hire bright deaf students from college? Some deaf get SSDI, rehabilitation center gives stinky jobs to the deaf like scrubbing the floors with a college degree…I hope getting to have hearing student at MSD is not about the money!
Have anyone considered the “No Child Left Behind” (NCLB) factors?
I believe MSD may have failed the NCLB for the second consecutive years, I will need to check with that… with that said… I believe MSD is committing a political and stragetic goal by admitting CODA students in hope to boost the academic performance at MSD.
Again, I could be wrong… however, the NCLB is threatening deaf institutions… if I recalled, if an institution, that receives public funds, fails the NCLB for the third consecutive year… the Federal Government, supposedly Department of Education, may assume administrative duties of the failing institution… That is my guess…
Again, I could be wrong.
That also could be a factor. I’ve never liked NCLB since its implementation. On the surface, it sounds great–accountability for public schools, and ratings for teachers, but it’s not beneficial to public schools that barely have the resources to teach their students. I do not think the scores of disabled students should be a part of the overall rating system for the public school district because the testing used to measure the scores of disabled students is not adequate enough in my view.
I agree with you… the NCLB does not measure student’s learning, but testing ability…
MSD passed NCLB. Had this fact confirmed by a MSD Board of Trustee Member.
That is true. According to the Maryland State Report (www.mdreportcard.org), MSD passed the NCLB 2 out of 3 with the 2006 report still pending.
Any school that receives public funding is mandated to follow the NCLB law. Of course, that’s the goal of the Congress. And students with disabilities are not excluded from this.
But, I understand not all deaf schools are under NCLB, yet, right?
I agree with Noelle. NCLB at the first glance looks like a great solution for ailing schools and poor teaching practices. The real evil of this is it actually makes students study longer and harder to pass those god-awful FEDERAL, not state, tests and spend less time in physical education, creative arts, and elective classes. Like Penny said..it’s more about the testing ability, not the learning ability. This is like saying going to school means becoming a top-rated testtaker, not a well-rounded student.
Teachers are underpaid/undervalued and yet, they’re required to take on more trainings and have enough credits to be sure they meet the adequate yearly progress (AYP) expectations or else they hafta go elsewhere. In that case, tell them to go to law school.
NCLB is a disguise for a disaster waiting to happen. Much to the dismay of the right-wing reformers.
Help me understand NCLB better. The SAT/ACT/LSAT/GMAT tests are all used to test prowess and probability of academic success. And to do well on those tests generally requires that the student be both well-rounded and savvy test-takers. Could the same be said for the NCLB test-takers?
Actually… NCLB is in response to the fact that the literary of U.S. is embarrassingly among the worst of industrial countries, while we are one of the richest countries in the world…. so the NCLB is really to rise basic literary of all americans in this country to par with the “top flighters” such as China, Japan, Britian, etc….
Redressing NCLB: Factory-mentality schooling is the solution to our nation’s poor education system. Work them h a r d. No recesses. No milk and cookies at 10:00 a.m. No show-n-tell where mommy’s this cool Congresswoman. Redirect funding to the key programs students should be studying in and cut funding in other programs that could be instrumental in their learning process.
NCLB allows the federal government to have the main strings but the states are stuck with the burden of dealing with the overhaul mess. Fun job for the superintendents, indeed. It’s really a big massive puppet show—the master’s the federal gov’t and the puppets are the states.
It is easy to be seduced by the line, “receive additional federal funding if it’s NCLB-mandated.” Actually, receive funding from that could be peanuts for many schools. NCLB was based on the business model that with certain accountability, flexibility, expected outcomes, and training, the schools will prosper. It ain’t working. Not one size fits all kinda thing. It’s mebbe important to note that private schools are exempt from this.
I hope other ppl can offer clearer explanations. This is my best shot without writing a highly subjective dissertation! ;)
Follow up article was printed in yesterday’s Frederick-News Post.
They conducted a poll. “Of the 202 people who voted, 42 percent were in favor of allowing hearing students to enroll, 50 percent were against it and 8 percent were unsure.”
I really don’t like it all. I think the deaf school should stay strong that’s school for the deaf. This is ridiculous for the hearing to enter this deaf school.This is my beleive that school is for the deaf only because it’s history from the started. Why change it? What’s wrong with school for the deaf only ? I will never be happy through if they allow the hearing people to enter that school. I graduated that school in the year 1978. Please stay strong the school for the deaf and for the deaf future years to come.
I’m going to that school as a junior… Really? if they let hearing kids come here, i think it is not right, becasue out there have hundreds of hearing school, so go there. But i htink it is cool if someone who re hearing n can sign liek a deaf kids do then sure. but i hope we stay strong for Deaf school.
Hello, I have read all of your comments regarding to your concerns. And I am a MSD student along with Albert Tharpe III, this is my last year at MSD. I used to attend a hearing school up to 5 grade then got transferred. My opinion is that I wouldn’t be surprised by the fact that MSD is allowing it even though that Mr. Tucker is a strong deaf advocate for the deaf communities. The reason why I am saying is because MSD seems like it was going to happen but yet it may not happen at all so we have to keep our eyes on how things show. I personally would like for MSD to put this in a experimental stage and see how will the students react and along with the adminstration’s reaction. I know that it may seems a little off or odd but yet it is just and experimental stage so really we have to see how we can go along with it and if we don’t like it then we can object to the Board of Trustee.