So on Saturday night, I went out to Madam’s Organ in Adams Morgan with four other girlfriends. One’s Deaf, two are interpreters, and one was in the Peace Corps around the same time as me and learned KSL (Kenyan Sign Language). So we all used ASL, sometimes KSL, while chatting with one another.
The table next to us was filled with some men who kept looking over at our table. One man started copying a few of the signs we produced. They seemed genuinely interested but didn’t initiate anything so we didn’t pay any mind and kept on chatting. Two of the girls (the interpreters) heard the men say “I wish I knew what they were saying.” We all smiled and continued our conversation.
Not long after, a few minutes later perhaps, my interpreter friends look at each other horrified, stop their conversation, and look at the table of the curious men. I asked what was wrong. They told me that they overheard one of the men say “Oh deaf girls, two for one!” And they erupted in laughter.
They did not say anything to the men. I immediately looked over and tried to make eye contact with one of them, praying that something clever would come to mind. Something that would put them in their place. The laughing men never looked back over to us. The moment passed. But the feeling, the indignation, the horror from their comments didn’t.
What upsets me the most is this isn’t the first time nor the last time hearing people make nasty comments about deaf people because they think their comments won’t be overheard. I just don’t get it.
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Julie,
In all fairness: deaf people have just been guility making unfair comments about hearing people because they think their signs will not be understood. That said, I agree with your message and share your feelings of revulsion.
Scott
Scott Van Nice, that does NOT faze me with your comments. That reflects the internalized problem you have with Deaf people in general.
R-
I would have cringed, too.
Still…
Many, many times I have signed in the presence of hearing people, knowing fully well that they would not understand my message - and laughingly taking advantage of that very fact. What is the difference?
Both of you bring up an interesting point.
I wonder if the implications are different because the men, using English, could be understood by most people in the bar. If my friends could hear it (in a bar where music was blasting), then most likely a good number of other people did as well.
I’d like to think that I don’t say nasty things about people in ASL in front of them knowing well they wouldn’t understand as JT put it. I’ve been guilty of it before but it’s still wrong. Especially with the specific comment put forth by the men described in this blog. One that made us objects, one that degraded us.
Maybe I’m making too big a deal of this. But then when I examine how I felt, and the rest of us felt, I don’t think so.
I’d just chalk it off as being human. Drinking buddies, chatting together in a boisterious envionment, exposed to an odd “phoenomenon”…. all those factors, when put together, equate an inevitable social blunder. As violated as I might feel, I would hope that I’d retain enough control not to pass quick nor permanent judgement. Still, what you felt was certainly appropriate, and it’s good that you recognized the “wrong” in this situation.
I agree with you, Jt. Severe judgment isn’t warranted in this case, which as you said was fueled by being in a bar, having a few drinks, etc.
And as you said, I recognized the “wrong” in this. And I suppose this is my way of telling it to those guys, not that they’d ever find this blog. :)
And also, after sharing this with a few of my friends, I found that this story was not uncommon. And I started to wonder if it were okay to remain silent, accepting of the situation, hence another justification for the blog.
I don’t think you are making a big deal out of it, only that the above commenters were correct in that we can take advantage of our vastly different languages. However, the reason I said it was a big deal is because the comments would be automatically called sexist according to women over at Feministing.com. I read them every so often and they often have sharp words for how men STILL do not think how our thinking can stereotype women, even if it is by accident. Thus I sympathize with you in horrorified anger that men said it in the first place. Other than that, *big grin* sign away and take advantage, just like foreign language speakers do here in USA.
Deaf notwithstanding, these guys were guilty of leering and making crude remarks as often happens. Not the best male behavior. As you would ignore catcalls passing construction sites on the street, just ignore the bar creeps. Or take advantage of the situation and call them “male chauvnist pigs” to their face in ASL.
Not only just adults do make fun of deaf people; some children do the same thing by acting as if they’re deaf and doing some make up signs. I’ve seen that few times in the metro. I often reminded the parents to teach their children about respect. :)
I like to get the kids involved. Theyre kids, you know? They might not be making fun of anything, just being kids and imitating like the little monkeys they are…
I wonder if this had nothing to do with your deafness- if they would have done/said something just as stupid if you were all hearing.
There’s a part of me that wants to remind you that hearing women hear this kind of obnoxious crap at the bar all the time…
I’m reminded of the Deaf guy that walked up to a friend of ours (also Deaf) and told her- I’d like to put my face right between… Somehow this guy continues to have friends to hang out with in spite of his repeated obnoxious behavior.
I guess sometimes people suck, regardless of what language they speak. And some people continue to sit back and accept the behavior, which is almost even sadder.
I think it had a lot to do with being Deaf. They said “Deaf girls… two for one” (whatever that means). It clearly indicates they consider Deaf women inferior to hearing women. It reminds me of the movie - “In the Company of Men.”
I know that sometimes people suck but I think the situation can be exacerbated when such base thoughts are carelessly flung out and fully believing that the targets are powerless and perhaps witless. That’s just plain ugly.
I’ve seen deaf ASL people imitate deaf ASL people and engaging in exacting same behavior as the hearing people you described. All of you four used sign language and happen to be deaf. If I was you, I’d hope to leave the table before they do and leave a handwritten note complete with a non-existent street address and what is actually an escort service phone number to visit and call to get a rude awakening. Trust me, it worked on so gorgeous gals who gawked to point of objectifying me.
You know, if gorgeous girls insisted on objectifying me, I wouldn’t mind to the point of having an overnight stay with them!
Objectifying types comes with baggage such as the CLAP, no pun intended. Oh, you probably can’t hear it. Neither can rest of us =)
Oscar - Feminism. Don’t go there. This kind of behavior does happen regardless of the gender(s), sexual preference and/or political orientation of victims. It’s better to expose double standards by feminists as well as rest of us, the general population.
it is safe to assume they were just typical guys, which is to say that they were petrified of any real interaction with attractive women, so they would rather say something crude and laugh off their insecurities. I dont know about your 4 friends, but if they are as cute as you, the statement above is a near certainty.
dont let morons bother you, hearing or deaf.
cheers
I had a similar experience. Waiting in line at DuPont Circle Theatre, my hearing roommate and I talked to each other in sign language. We were 20ish at that time. She said she heard two men standing behind us say, “Too bad two attractive women are deaf!” Needless to say, they looked so blushed after she __Sim-Commed__ to me what the two men had said.
I’m disappointed DeafDC removed comment #85573 (I think), which was a brilliant spoof of Bert Shaposka’s love for EMG’s 125-year-old writing and the phrase “English, the coin of the realm.” “Bert” commented on EMG’s opinion of deaf people drinking.
I know in a way it wasn’t nice, but it was hysterically funny. The author was also responsible enough to add that it wasn’t really written by Shaposka, so there would be no misunderstanding. By doing so, the author made it clear that the post was a parody and not to be taken seriously.
Satire is constitutionally protected and the comment should’ve been left up, in my opinion. It was not slander or libel and didn’t hurt anyone, except maybe Mr. Shaposka’s feelings. Satire tends to hurt the feelings of the person being lampooned, and that’s to be expected.
Again, I’m very sorry DeafDC.com management made the call to remove constitutionally protected speech.
Constitutionally protected speech?
LOL!
Seriously, the 1st Amendment does not apply here. DeafDC.com and Shane Feldman, as far as I know, are not state actors.
Yes, I thought that it was hysterically funny but Shane can delete comments if he wants to… more power to him, I guess.
Stop this sanctimonious drivel.
j,
When you make a comment, you will want to click on the “terms and conditions” link below the comment box. It states:
Terms and Conditions
It’s simple. Do not make any offensive, personal attacks on other commenters or DeafDC.com bloggers. This kind of behavior will not be tolerated. Action taken may range from deletion of offending comment to site-wide ban, with or without notice.
Yet you didn’t delete RLM impersonators’ posts. Not to jump to conclusions but to be honest, it adds credibility to some culturally deaf people’s complaints. Whereas digs at them via comments here (e.g. Punky Brewster heaping insults on Mr. Heuer) were tolerated, when they generously return the favor, they get deleted.
Something to think about. Either leave comments alone or delete offensive comments from all parties.
Ben M,
I’ve moderated many comments from people who have personally attacked supporters of ASL (you may not have seen them before I took them down). Both sides have reared their ugly head and I’ve had to enforce the policy. Still, both sides will perceive themselves as the victims. As for the complaint that we allow people to “attack” one side or the other. The policy is clear, no offensive or personal attacks. If someone attacks another ideology and not the person, it will stand.
Sure, some people make fools of themselves, but there’s a difference between harming oneself and harming others. We claim no responsibility for the former and pay careful attention to the latter. Some comments may have escaped my radar. Other comments are borderline, judgment calls. If anyone feels that they’ve been personally attacked on DeafDC.com, please send an email to my first name . last name at deafdc.com.
I did think it was a very clever piece - but unfortunately, if I was offended, I’m pretty sure that others were as well. So, Mr. Shaposka wasn’t the only one hurt yesterday.
Today, Sunday, July 29, 2007, I learned for the first time that I had been personally attacked by commentators who hide behind the cloak of anonymity. My single-minded purpose was to inspire a civilized and legitimate discourse regarding Dr. Gallaudet’s legacy and what it portends for the future. However, the present generation of cyberbullies had other ideas. In my response, I would not resort to personal invective or moral indignation, but rather cite the wisdom of the Roman satiric poet, Juvenal (55-127 A.D.). When commenting on the follies of mankind, Juvenal wrote: “Revenge is the weak pleasure of a narrow mind.”
Julie,
The male species has a very strong predisposition to make idiots of themselves. Scientists have long declared that the chromosome markup in males (XY) is actually deformed when compared to those of females. Thus, it is only natural that males exhibit neanderthal behavior.
Look at the problems of the world (especially violence), and then look at the sex of the instigators / participants. Nearly all are males…
I own 2 revolvers because I like target shooting. But I do wonder, deep down, if it is actually a substitute for some unknown deficiency within my psyche. Especially the fact that I like to sprinkle powdered sugar on the barrels before target practice.
Nice entry, a fun read. May there be an end to all macho bullshit.
Oxford University’s Geneticist Bryan Sykes says in “Adam’s Curse” (2004) that the presence of Y-Chromosome, which is carried patrilineally, is the source of some men’s abnormal behaviour like aggressiveness, combativeness, warriorlikeness, rudeness, dangerously threatening, shouting, swearing, cursing. Males that are well-balanced, kind, or metrosexually inclined get the characteristic traits from X-mitochondrion through their matrilineage. Females have no Y; they have two XXs from their matrilineage. Dieu merci that there are 76% of Americans against the aggressive Bush-Cheney’s Iraq war! Back to square one, Prof. Sykes says that Y-chromosome may gradually disappear in 150,000 years from now. For more information, see Steven Olsen’s “Human Mapping History” (2002).
Honestly, I don’t get all this psycho evo crap. I mean, when it comes down to it, women and men are equal, right? Why should we tolerate behavior from men that we would not tolerate from women? and vice versa? Isn’t it indicative of how low your opinion of men is in general, if you make excuses for their behavior? Do you not believe that men are evolved enough to behave appropriately?
**I am not responding specifically to the statements above. I just thought it’s important to point out that often in those debates, what comes up is, “they’re just being boys” or some excuse, which just seems to be a really low opinion of men in general, yes?
Men are perfectly capable of behaving in a civilized manner. We should expect no less.
“Two for one”?
I don’t get it….
I could be wrong, but it’s a common misconception that deaf women tend to be more enthusiastic than hearing women. So if they landed a deaf woman, it would equal to two hearing women. :P
There’s a common misconception that Deaf women are more enthusiastic? Really?
Never heard that…
You ever watch the play, Children of a Lesser God?
Deaf women have to deal with it allllll the time from clueless hearing guys.
Never heard of that myself, but again I’m not a hearing guy! Just a deaf one! LOL
How you doing, Deaf Pundit?
I’ve heard it. It’s a stupid stereotype. I think it comes out of the whole idea of deaf women being being nonverbal - physical, hence, more, like, easy.
Ahh, I don’t know if I’m explaining it clearly, but we’ve all had people made assumptions about ourselves(if we are nonverbal), that we are somewhat limited in intelligence, or in some way less cerebal, less of a “thinker”.
Maybe someone can explain this better.
Could it be the assumption that possessing language indicates that one possesses intelligence? And if people don’t hear anything coming out of your mouth, then you don’t have language, because surely those moving hands couldn’t express anything more complex than pictures themselves could. Hence those silent ones don’t possess language, don’t possess thought, therefore they must be like animals.
After all they can’t hear us say, “I am woman, hear me roar!” Although I’m definitely roaring…
Actually, the idea that Deaf women are “more enthusiastic” aren’t just limited to Deaf women…it also has been said of Deaf men.
Apparently, some hearing people have noticed that Deaf people are “more enthusiastic” in bed…in other words, Deaf people make excellent lovers, because they FOCUS more on their partners when they’re in bed instead of wasting time listening to stuff or getting distracted by other things.
The “more enthusiastic” thing has also been said of Deaf gay people, because I have a Deaf male gay friend who told me that hearing gay males used to hit on him, thinking that they were in for a great time in bed because my friend was Deaf.
Julie, you brought up something that I recalled as a student at NTID, as you may know that we lived through hearing students in dorms. I was told by a hearing person I met, that hearing students knew that NTID students wouldn’t hear their comments behind our backs, they would call us NID all the time. It doesn’t matter where we live or in any place we go, they just feel compelled to make fun of us. I got used to it and I just let them go. It is part of attitude of ignorant, period!
NID?
National Institute for the Deaf. Basically implying that NTID is an asylum for the deaf. :P
A couple of months ago I met a guy at my local watering hole…we’ll call him Joe. Joe seemed to be a pretty nice guy, but one major problem - the guy had one of the biggest, bushiest mustaches I have ever seen, and he never seemed to trim it. As a result, he was next to impossible for me to lipread. As a result, any time we wanted to have a conversation, he had to write, which he did seem willing to do.
Things seemed fine…I didn’t see Joe all that often, but when I did, he was always friendly and ready with paper and pen.
But somewhere, somehow his view of me must have changed. I dunno, maybe he always had this opinion of me from the beginning or something…but one night a couple of weeks ago he slipped me a note that made a not-so-subtle hint that he must have been hoping for that “two for one” that night. I just ignored it and shrugged him off, figuring he’d had one too many beers.
But then the other night I bumped into him at the pub again. I happened to have my latest literary interest with me, and he tried to slip a note into the book, which I noticed. I pulled the slip out and he had left a very lewd, crass comment about a certain part of my anatomy, complete with an illustration.
I let him know right then and there what I thought of his note. The guy was dumbfounded. He just stood there speechless, his face changing to five shades of red before he finally turned around and slinked out of the pub with his tail between his legs.
I’m now left to wonder…WHY? I don’t recall that I ever said or did anything to give any impression that I was looking to have any sort of “carnal relations” with this guy (or any other guy at the pub, for that matter). I find myself wondering if he would have done this to any female? Would he have had the bleeping balls to have gone up to a hearing woman and verbally stated to her the same thing that he wrote to me?
Or did he do it to me because 1) He thought that a Deaf woman might be easier to score, 2) He thought I would be stupid enough to take it as a compliment, 3) He figured that by writing it he could get away with such behavior?
Makes me wonder.
I don’t think we will be seeing him around that pub for awhile, tho.
Yuck, sorry that happened. The sadder thing, it won’t be the last time. *shaking head*
4) He thought you’d not tell others about it?
Re:(#85730)
Probably thought I wouldn’t tell HIM about it.
(considering that I have been told my voice does tend to get a bit “loud” when I’m angry, I’m sure several others in the place OVERHEARD (to quote the title of this post…***wink***) what I had to say!)
Did you all read the cover story in CITY PAPER last week? The one about Late Night Shots, a social website run by young Republican upstarts? Now that is some truly unclassy stuff, what some men are capable of…not to forget what they said about the Adams Morgan neighborhood and shooting ppl…
Julie, good post, simple and to the point!
I heard about it! I wasn’t able to pick up a copy for myself so thanks for the link!
Here’s the lead-in for the story about Late Night Shots: “Late Night Shots is herding the next generation of ******** through Georgetown bars. And you’re not invited.”
URL: http://www.washingtoncitypaper.....hp?id=2008 (I hope the article shows up on the page… if not, it’s somewhere in the website)
I can’t say “enjoy the article!” but it’s quite enlightening…
Thank you, Sara Stallard! I always wondered what is in these fools’ minds from day one.
This has been very, very and very enlightening for me as well!
Cheers,
R-