Davila, The Pride Of Gallaudet…And RIT/NTID, Too!
By Adam Stone on Tue 18 Sep 2007 |
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Time to wind up the good ol’ RIT vs. Gallaudet rivalry again.
Except that, this time, distinguished Gallaudet President Dr. Davila, not a bunch of drunk, obscene adolescents at a pep rally, started it.
I refer to this video clip from the September 6th Town Hall meeting posted on Gallaudet’s website. It’s a rousing speech, a call to action on the part of students and alumni to say great things about their university. Say no negative things! Reasonable enough.
At first glance, I can understand why this particular snippet, out of everything else Dr. Davila had said during that meeting, was picked for the website. The message is relevant to anyone who considers themselves a part of the Gallaudet community.
But! Towards the end of the video, he says:
We need good students…I found them when I was working at NTID and I intend to look for the students again to find them and bring them to Washington, not Rochester!
Ouch!
I will here now reveal my disclaimers. I love this guy. He’s from my hometown area in southern California. I first met this man when I was 15 years old. He personally got me my second co-op, with which I needed to graduate on-time. As the highest-serving hearing-impaired person in Federal government, Dr. Davila is an incredible role model for deaf people everywhere. I am so proud that he was the vice-president of NTID, and I am thrilled beyond belief that he is now the ninth president of Gallaudet University. He is quite possibly the most distinguished deaf person alive. It’s almost too bad his particular presidency comes with an expiration date.
But…this statement, this “Washington, not Rochester!” statement. Now, now, was it really necessary to say that, Dr. Davila?
The easiest conclusion to draw is that people apparently were still wondering if Dr. Davila was still “loyal” to RIT/NTID, and that Dr. Davila made this statement to allay any fears of a Sinister Conspiracy between him and his former employer.
Such fears are ludicrous. If you have actually shared this concern–or even worse, voiced it out loud–shame on you. By doing so, you had temporarily lost perspective of how things work in the real world, and worse, elevated what is a nice, cute intercollegiate rivalry into something it really shouldn’t be. But back to the president.
Another conclusion could be that Dr. Davila really is a gung-ho Gallaudet alumnus and wanted to prove it.
Fair enough. The Gallaudet community trashes RIT/NTID on a regular basis. I’d love to take the higher road and say we (as in the RIT/NTID community) don’t do it, but we do it, too. It’s fun when meted out in small portions with a friendly smirk on the side. It’s undiplomatic, but we’re just students and alumnus from rival colleges. It comes with the job.
Dr. Davila isn’t just an alumnus, however. He’s a president. That means he needs to be diplomatic. So…nope. It wasn’t okay to say that at the Town Hall, nope.
Dr. Davila, everything you said before that was great, and I’m pretty sure you would have made an equal impact had you not said what you said at the end. I’ll be honest here. What you said hurt a little.
But shucks, we can’t un-say things. Don’t worry. We at RIT/NTID are still proud that you were our leader at one point. I believe that most, if not all, of us are equally proud that you’re now serving Gallaudet’s community as well. We’re supporting you all the way.
So, please don’t slap our faces just to stir up a rivalry or to strengthen your position with those who question your commitment to your job.
Speaking of which, you seem to be doing a nice job. Keep it up, Bob!
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The way I see it is a compliment! Bob Davila wants the NTID/RIT best to go to Washington, DC and he may be having a hard time recruiting the best to Gallaudet as he was at RIT.
Bob’s a cool man and he would never put down RIT in any form.
As I recall from the last protest, Gallaudet students got mad at JKF for wanting to bring stricter academic standards to Gallaudet, and in recruiting new students with cochlear implants to attend Gallaudet. I’m just waiting for the next protest to happen whenever Davila decides to bring stricter academic standards and kicks out the six-year or eight-year students.
*sits back and waits for the popcorn to pop* This should be interesting.
Stricter academic standards are what many protestors want among other things as much as you do not want to believe it.
History has shown that the academic standards at Gallaudet have become lax during Jane Fernandes Kelleher’s time as an administrator under IKJ’s administration. In other words, Davila is going to bring it back and trust me, there will be no protest.
As for those 6 to 8 years students, it’s happening at other colleges where students still go to school longer than 4 years for all different reasons. I’ll be surprised if ALL hearing students or deaf students at hearing universities are immune from this.
I believe that academic standards were lax already before JFK’s tenure, and the faculty played a large part in not holding their students up to a higher academic standard, hence the existence of the six-year Gallaudet students who should’ve finished their bachelor degrees in four years.
Noelle,
In her gross misrepresentation JKF WATERED DOWN the standard expected of Gallaudet.
It’s not about a “before” and “after” picture, and admit it or not, Dr. Rosen was shafted before she even assumed the position of VP of Academic Affairs as is now called, Provost.
I’m very shocked you’re that oblivious. Now that you’ve been indoctrinated from the above you know precedent is not even possible to use. JKF didn’t get the shaft. She’s tight with IKJ.
Whilst you might go around prancing around in your “latent” form of Audism fact remains that JKF did major damage.
Look at Dr. Rosen, she’s laughing driving down the Sunset!
Noelle, watch it, alright?
So six-year and eight-year students didn’t exist before JKF?
They existed, but JK claimed she did a lot for academic rigor.. and that has now been proven to be false.
Come on! This is getting stupid. Please be realistic! There’s nothing wrong with students taking forever to graduate as long as they’re productive, gainfully employed (proportionate to overhead living costs) while taking classes at Gallaudet. Ironically, your beloved Dr. I. King Jordan remarked on TV that (roughly translated) Gallaudet is the “Harvard (expected to graduate on time) and Prince George’s Community College (all come and go as they please)” of deaf education. Now you see, the perception gives Gallaudet a kind of standard that goes both ways. There are many who took forever to graduate because they don’t like handouts and stuff. They work hard for their money paying out of pocket. There are some who graduated in 4 years that weren’t productive. Call that MEDIOCRITY!!! QUALITY OVER QUANTITY! Thought you “Smith” knew better!
Student success is important. College president would look at the graduate rate in x years depending on extra year for co-op/internship. President also would look at retention rate. President usually pushes for better rate. More years = more money, not finance-wise! College is expensive nowadays.
There’s something wrong at Gallaudet if these students are taking six years or eight years to finish a bachelor’s degree.
That is blatantly ridiculous and should not be accepted at Gallaudet!
(Placed in the right sub-thread) Come on! This is getting stupid. Please be realistic! There’s nothing wrong with students taking forever to graduate as long as they’re productive, gainfully employed (proportionate to overhead living costs) while taking classes at Gallaudet. Ironically, your beloved Dr. I. King Jordan remarked on TV that (roughly translated) Gallaudet is the “Harvard (expected to graduate on time) and Prince George’s Community College (all come and go as they please)” of deaf education. Now you see, the perception gives Gallaudet a kind of standard that goes both ways. There are many who took forever to graduate because they don’t like handouts and stuff. They work hard for their money paying out of pocket. There are some who graduated in 4 years that weren’t productive. Call that MEDIOCRITY!!! QUALITY OVER QUANTITY! Thought you “Smith” knew better!
It’s not financially productive for these students to take so long to complete their education. Do we even have the percentages of how many enrolled at Gallaudet have taken this long to graduate? I’m going to look for those stats.
By the way, Deafspook, it’s not good to have an university that has a very subpar graduation rate.
Ok, stats found so far:
Agree with Noelle…
Related to my previous post, for Gallaudet, x = 4 and for RIT’s engineering program, x = 5 as it includes co-op.
U.S. News & World Report on America’s Best College 2008 look at 1.) graduation & rate rank 2.) average freshman retention rate 3.) 2006 predicted graduation rate 4.) 2006 actual graduation rate
“The average deaf student takes approximately 7 years to graduate.”
Also, I’d say nearly all of the students receive a good portion of money from handouts in the form of SSI, SSDI and student package aid whose average money spent per student is slightly less than the total cost for residential students.
“The University reports that the average student aid package for eligible students requesting aid came to $16,046 per student in fiscal year 2006. By way of comparison, the total cost of attending Gallaudet in fiscal year 2006 was $10,230 ($9,920 for tuition and $310 in fees) for commuter students and $18,740 for residential students ($9,920 for tuition, $310 in fees, $4,850 for room, and $3,660 for board).
In addition to financial aid, a majority of Gallaudet students also receive Supplemental Security Income and Social Security Disability Income payments. Gallaudet also received about $3.5 million in Federal grants and contracts in fiscal year 2006. Gallaudet anticipates receiving approximately $586,800 in additional revenue from increased tuition and room and board charges in fiscal year 2008. The University also expects to receive approximately $3 million in competitive grants from the Federal Government in fiscal year 2007.”
http://www.ed.gov/about/overvi.....laudet.pdf
Noelle - You need to factor in the discrimination deaf and HoH faces in seeking employment while pursuing postsecondary studies. Those obstacles seriously add up to the hassle producing for longer stays in postsecondary studies. It’s so pointless to haggle, nitpick towards determining what’s too short, too long. Get on with it. There are MANY who have done so well. Remember, there are single parents, students who’s so poor but not wanting handouts, and so on. That’s what reviewers (magazines), and ignorant figureheads et. al. don’t really realize and take in factor about Gallaudet, NTID/RIT and CSUN’s deaf and HoH students. Odds are stacked against us (HEARING included) from the get go. I have known many (INCLUDING hearing) others from institutions other than the “big three” who took as long as many from the big three did. Same thing applies here. Noelle, I notice you have a tendency to believe so much what you read. Perhaps, for the “holidays” (being PC here), you can ask for a children book with “big” pictures to read in between the lines. Perhaps this is ideal training for a Smith College graduate. Your example illustrates as to why some explained why the sign for Smith College represents “snobby.”
Actually, NTID/RIT’s graduation rate is much better than that of Gallaudet’s.
I am quite aware of the discrimination faced in seeking employment while pursuing postsecondary degrees. However, it is NOT good that Gallaudet has such a low graduation rate.
Besides, it’s financially better to finish your degree in four years instead of six years. If I had gone the six year route, I’d be thousands of dollars more in college debt.
It all comes to the level of education the incoming first-years have, and the college preparation they have. If they’re taking so long to finish a college degree, then perhaps they’re not ready for college, and should attend a community college first before doing so.
DeafSpook- shouting your opinion down at people never helps.
Noelle- I can write a whole blog on why it takes so long for Gally students to graduate. For now, I’ll just say that admissions standards had as much to do with it as academic rigor.
While JKF didn’t start the problem, she didn’t end it either. As DP said, her claims that she turned things around were completely unfounded.
How about isolating figures. Only BA/BS candidates from both Gallaudet (deaf-only), deaf at RIT (thru NTID) and deaf at CSUN (thru NCOD). Do not include AAs, even those of prolonged sequences extending beyond two-years, from any of said institutions. No slight here. But, we need to realize a fair common denominator before comparing. This is why I think NTID numbers are quite misleading. Am I mistaken?
Statistics 2006 for NTID
Sub-baccalaureate 117 (plus 22 hearing students in Interpretation)
Baccalaureate 97 (plus 6 hearing students in Interpretation)
Masters 31 (plus 11 hearing in MSSE)
Job placement is 95%
This one is for 2007, ready for the surprise?
Deaf baccalaureate students at RIT, graduate rate is 70%
compared to
Hearing baccalaureate students at RIT, the graduate rate is 64%
New RIT President Bill Destler is not satisfied with 64%. It should be higher. I totally agree.
Couple of questions if anyone knows or can find out:
1) What KIND of jobs are they being placed in? Because it’s not just *unemployment* that’s a problem for deaf people… underemployment is too. If RIT/NTID is helping its graduates get good jobs (translation: you can live off the salaries in a major city and can work your way up to supporting a family)more power to them. But if this 95% placement level includes really low stuff… well.
2) How long is it taking them to graduate?
3) Any stats on how many six to eight year HEARING students there are in general? I knew all kinds of educational bums at UW-M. They take time off to work, travel Europe, they were very Zen about it and since they were happy I didn’t think too much of it.
1.) Kind of jobs of the graduates:
Science and Engineering 29%
Business 28%
Visual Communication 16%
Miscellaneous (Postal workers, teachers, socialworkers, counselors, maintenance workers) 27%
2.) BS (transfer after NTID’s associates) 6.3 years
BS (transfer from NTID without associates) 5.5 years
BS (direct entry) 4.8 years
Calculated from the days he/she entered NTID to graduation day regardless of withdrawals or leave of absence
Information copied from Deaf Digest 9/16/07:
“…a machine shop with approximately 15 deaf NTID/RIT graduates being employed. And the starting entry level salary is between $45,000-$50,000 and that is just for graduates with Associate degrees.”
Anyone know about CSUN and Gallaudet?
To Mr. Chris Heuer and DeafSpook,
The annual reports at http://www.ntid.rit.edu/media/annualreport.php contain a lot of information that you are looking for.
To WAD,
The enrollment reports at http://www.gallaudet.edu/x2294.xml include statistics on graduation and degrees that were granted but I have not found any information relating to job placement.
To DeafSpook,
While the number of bachelor’s degrees granted by Gallaudet University is much higher than RIT (165 vs. 97 for the year of 2006), it is no secret that it is much easier to get a bachelor’s degree at Gallaudet University than RIT. Each of RIT’s colleges has its own admissions standards but the lowest admissions standard of all colleges except NTID is ACT composite score of 22 or SAT 1020 (critical reading and math) (source: http://www.rit.edu/~932www/pdfs/Prospectus.pdf). Gallaudet’s admissions standard for bachelor’s program is only ACT score of 13 in English or Reading and 13 in Math or SAT 310 in Math and 320 in Verbal (source: http://clerccenter.gallaudet.e.....ction.pdf, information from online forum). There is a strong relationship between the great discrepancy in admissions standards and the great discrepancy in degrees that were granted.
Dr. Weiner claimed that the admissions standards were raised but I have not seen any concrete information about them yet (source: The Washington Post).
Joseph Pietro Riolo
josephpietrojeungriolo@gmail.com
Public domain notice: I put all of my expressions in this post in the public domain.
(Forgive me if this is duplicate. I posted my comment below last night but it did not show up, at least on my laptop.)
To Mr. Chris Heuer and DeafSpook,
The annual reports at http://www.ntid.rit.edu/media/annualreport.php contain a lot of information that you are looking for.
To WAD,
The enrollment reports at http://www.gallaudet.edu/x2294.xml include statistics on graduation and degrees that were granted but I have not found any information relating to job placement.
To DeafSpook,
While the number of bachelor’s degrees granted by Gallaudet University is much higher than RIT (165 vs. 97 for the year of 2006), it is no secret that it is much easier to get a bachelor’s degree at Gallaudet University than RIT. Each of RIT’s colleges has its own admissions standards but the lowest admissions standard of all colleges except NTID is ACT composite score of 22 or SAT 1020 (critical reading and math) (source: http://www.rit.edu/~932www/pdfs/Prospectus.pdf). Gallaudet’s admissions standard for bachelor’s program is only ACT score of 13 in English or Reading and 13 in Math or SAT 310 in Math and 320 in Verbal (source: http://clerccenter.gallaudet.e.....ction.pdf, information from online forum). There is a strong relationship between the great discrepancy in admissions standards and the great discrepancy in degrees that were granted.
Dr. Weiner claimed that the admissions standards were raised but I have not seen any concrete information about them yet (source: The Washington Post).
Joseph Pietro Riolo
josephpietrojeungriolo@gmail.com
Public domain notice: I put all of my expressions in this post in the public domain.
Addendum: According to http://ims.gallaudet.edu/pdf/20070914-0003.pdf, the admissions standards at Gallaudet University will be raised to ACT score of 14 starting Fall 2008. To put this in perspective, that is the minimum ACT score for some associate degree programs at NTID.
Joseph Pietro Riolo
josephpietrojeungriolo@gmail.com
Public domain notice: I put all of my expressions in this post in the public domain.
Noelle,
Those are not the reasons why Gallaudet students protested.
Sir,
Surely you aren’t implying the reasons for the protest weren’t anything but inflammatory? Such jest!
-owl
Mister owl,
I could write a novel in response but let’s just take my comment at face value. ;)
I am aware of that, but JKF’s statements about raising academic standards did seem to play a part in the protest given newspaper reports.
Ah yes, the wonderful reliability of the media.
Not trying to irk you Noelle. Just seems to be a good place to point it out.
Yes, the worst media reporting ever that operated mainly on the side of the former administration. So much for balanced reporting, not!
Noelle,
I hate to use this cliche, but don’t believe everything you read.
Reminds me of when somebody here (or elsewhere?) was like “Yo you Gally students said JKF wasn’t deaf enough. Davila grew up oral too- why aren’t you protesting him?”
Ben, people aren’t protesting Davila because they’ve basically got a huge gun to their heads, thanks to the accredition committee.
The accredition committee made it clear that if Gallaudet has another protest, it would lose its accredition.
Great way to shut up these pesky Deaf people, huh? (I’m being sarcastic by the way)
Whoa, whoa, I don’t know about you but we’re not protesting Davila because we don’t want to. He’s a leader with a proven track record who has brought sorely needed changes to Gallaudet so far.
No one on campus was muttering “If not for MSA…” before I graduated last May.
I guess you don’t check GallyNet-L…it gives a pretty good pulse on the Gallaudet community.
Trust me, there are plenty of people who are unhappy with Davila.
Or maybe… just maybe… a great many people never really gave a damn whether or not JKF was “deaf enough.” Which is pretty much why they don’t really give a damn whether or not Davila grew up oral, too.
Absolute last I’m going to say on that here. Just throwing it in there.
Michele, no, I don’t read Gally-l-net. I did briefly and it seemed to me most of its participants were alums, not the current faculty and students.
I also recall a friend who reads it mentioning that some people on it raised hell over Dunn’s demotion and the firing of Kimmel.
But did people say to revolt because Davila isn’t deaf enough?
Ben, GallyNet-L does have faculty/staff subscribers who make posts, as well as some students. Their frequency of postings changes from month to month.
Nobody has said to protest because Davila isn’t deaf enough…but there are definitely undercurrents that would support such a protest. I.e., there has been criticism of his signing style/quality, criticism on his ability to reduce racism on campus, etc etc.
Michele, with every leader, there’s always criticism, whether deserved or not. Always a diversity of opinions. But “there are definitely undercurrents that would support such a protest”? Not even close- except in the case when a number of black students got understandably upset about Dunn’s demotion. But really, as a whole, the community’s completely sick of protesting. Nobody even talks about the 2006 protest anymore.
I should know, I was a Gallaudet student last year. With due respect, being actually there everyday trumps reading things on the internet anytime.
I’m sure there’s at least a few on “ground zero” who disagree with my conclusions. I welcome their input.
I just went to gallynet-L.. it’s what I thought it to be: a beehive of very political alums. Some of their opinions are interesting but aren’t typical of the general community.
I like Slemo’s posts, tho.
Noelle… Are you trying to re-write history?? As I recall, JKF was the PROVOST of Gallaudet, and the person most responsible for the academic failings of the University!! She is the reason Gallaudet was placed on probation! Yes, she was probably anxious to improve the academic standards on campus, because SHE was responsible for the failings in the first place!!!
Dr. Davila is trying to repair the MESS she and IKJ left from their time in office!
Yes, Noelle is a wannabe revisionist historian seeking acceptance here!
It sounds like friendly competition and a little pep talk for the audience. But you’re right, he’s on Gallaudet’s side now and therefore must appease his stakeholders.
First of all, I’m an alumni of RIT. Secondly, I am not at all offended by Dr. Davila’s “…bring them to Washington, not Rochester!”
Gallaudet will be something to cherish after Dr. Davila leaves office and that someone of similiar caliber will continue to maintain our beloved university.
Universities definitely are cracking down on their students and their conduct - rightfully or not. Check out this article on ABC News about a student being tasered then arrested by the police during a public speaking event.
http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3616977
Your link didn’t work, but here’s another one:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/.....index.html
Was there a significant increase in enrollment for NTID this Fall? Conventional wisdom would say that the Gallaudet protest caused many potential Gallaudet freshmen to steer away from going to DC. My guess is that Davilla was speaking to this trend (if there is one), and wants to make a strong statement about it.
Good point.
This still doesn’t justify why he’d have to make that statement. So what if that’s true. To instill some pride back to Gallaudet community doesn’t have to be at the expense of NTID.
To me it just seems like friendly competition.
What does this have to do with anything? Diplomacy never gets old, especially when you’re high up.
::: sneering ::: Stop being this naive. Even with many of you pseudo-intellectuals, this is so typical of DeafDC.com and its like. Many of you people are taking this too personally. When one goes from one team to other team by means of free agency of first of a number of retirements, healthy competition always reigns albeit friendly jabs thrown abound. Trust me Dr. Hurwitz is cackling in his CID trained voice. Dr. Davila just saying stuff that is standard. It’s part of his job. Alright? Gee. Noelle, check your popcorn before you eat. There’s some word going around about certain manufactured popcorns laced with strange stuff. Frankly, it’s no wonder ::: rolling eyes:::
Academic standards? Liek what? DeafDigest never listed the top 10-20 deaf HS best students or a deaf honor rolls because to do well in school is to be “hearing”. I was at Gallaudet in the 1980s. The incoming freshmen class were like 500 students. The day after HC, dropped to 100.